MajoraZ

I follow Mesoamerican history and archeology: A fair amount of Aztec and other Mesoamerican art was brought into Italy, so this shouldn't be too surprising There's even a specific mask the Medici's owned (which they modified to be wall-mountable) that had been an Aztec piece, except the Aztec had ALSO only taken (and modified it, adding new eye inlays for example) it from the ruins of an older Mesoamerican civilization, the Teotihuacanos You can see the mask in question (at least I believe this is the specific one, though if it is, then the Aztec applied eye-inlays were lost over time) in pic here and in these links: uffizi.it/opere/maschera-teo… commons.wikimedia.org/wiki/F… commons.wikimedia.org/wiki/F… commons.wikimedia.org/wiki/F… Though there are a few other Mesoamerican pieces in the Medici collection as well (similarly, the Aztec actually regularly did archeological excavations at Teotihuacan and actually produced a whole "Teotihuacano revival style" art and architectural movement: nitter.gq/Majora__Z/status/19669…, they also collected some Mezcala artifacts, and in one case the Aztec even collected Olmec mask that would have been made 2000-3000 years earlier: smarthistory.org/olmec-mask/) There's a number of other examples of stuff like this: - A obsidian mirror (pic 2), that John Dee, Elizabeth I's advisor, used for scrying was an Aztec mirror that they actually would have used in much the same way - There's some Catholic devotional images made from Olmec or Maya masks in some collections (pic 3) - The Spanish actually commissioned a LOT of "paintings" (pic 4), mitres, triptychs etc produced by Mesoamerican artists using the same feather mosaic technique the Aztec and other civilizations in the region used to cover the outside of their warsuits, shields helmets etc, where the outer surface had designs and patterns or images made from tens of thousands of (often iridescent) feathers. There's even a Spanish-Moorish style shield made as a gift for Philip II by Mesoamerican artists and Spanish armorers covered in feather mosaic: brill.com/view/journals/jemh… and journals.openedition.org/nue… (tho sadly the mosaic layer is pretty damaged in this case) - Francisco Hernández de Toledo, Philip II's personal royal physician and naturalist, travelled to Mexico and gathered Aztec and other Mesoamerican sources and knowledge on botanical and medical sciences, since the Aztec actually had really developed practices in those areas, with huge royal botanical gardens used not just for pleasure but also to stock medical herbs and to experiment with and categorize plants, flowers, herbs etc: docs.google.com/document/d/1… There's definitely other interesting examples I can think of with early interaction, exchange, and communication between Mesoamerican vs European art, artists, civilization, but I'll stop here for now See also: nitter.gq/Majora__Z/status/21151…

"New Mexico" was also called that before the country of Mexico was named "Mexico", so this is extra silly! New Mexico is named that after the island of Mexico and the capital of the Aztec Empire, Tenochtitlan, also known as Mexico-Tenochtitlan because it was on said island If you wanna be technical, New Mexico only became a state in 1912, but that area was named "New Mexico" as early as the 1590s as the Spanish province of Santa Fe de Nuevo México, which in turn may have derived the "Mexico" portion from the Spanish colonial territory of "Reino de México", which was established in the late 1520, and that was in turn named after Mexico-Tenochtitlan and the island of Mexico. At some point (I am actually not sure when exactly) the whole valley that Tenochtitlan was located in (which formed the central core of the Aztec empire and at contact, had ~50 other major Aztec cities and a few hundred smaller towns/villages) became known as the "Valley of Mexico", and then later it was adopted as the name of the country of Mexico as a whole when it achieved independence in 1821 See the attached image for reference re: the Valley of Mexico and Tenochtitlan and the natural islands it covered, to to view it at full size open the image as it's own tab, an then edit the url to end in "orig", ex: ...format=jpg&name=orig Lastly, what "Mexico" and "Mexica" (the specific ethnic group of Nahuas/"Aztecs" in Tenochtitlan and Tlatelolco; Tlatelolco being another city founded on the island of Mexico, but the Tenochca Mexicas conquered the Tlatleolca, and both cities fused into each other) mean and what their name origins are is a subject of debate and isn't clear (see: en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Name_o… ), contrary to some other replies asserting a uncontested etymologies See here: nitter.gq/Majora__Z/status/18688… for info on how Mexica vs Nahua vs Aztec etc intersect as terms, as there are nuances I skipped over;, and here for more posts I've done on Mesoamerican history and archeology in general: nitter.gq/Majora__Z/status/18688…)

To add: - We don't know the culture of the main inhabitants, but some districts had Maya, Zapotec, Gulf Coast or Michoacano denizens - We have a decent idea of its growth and decline over time, and it's interactions with other cities So, it fits neatly within our understanding and broader knowledge of Mesoamerican history, politics, and cultural groups: It's not like it's a total mystery or entirely anomalous, even if there are some things about it we don't know yet or are unusual For context, here's a short summary of Teotihuacan's history: ------------- A small city or a town/village by maybe 300, or definitely 100BC, Teotihuacan grew explosively ~100-200AD, it grew explosively, likely from volcanoes displacing people from other nearby sites like Cuicuilco, who migrated into Teotihuacan (tho I did come across some papers lately which contradict this). Over the next 200 years it became a huge metropolis (~100,000 people across a 18sqkm grid, the full site arguably covering 37sqkm), with it's theater style braziers, talud-tablero architectural style, and other traits spreading across Mesoamerica. It developed ties with major Maya and Zapotec cities like Tikal and Monte Alban, tho for the former there was seemingly breakdown of diplomacy, with Teotihuacano armies conquering it and other Maya cities around 375-425AD (tho if these armies were really from Teotihuacan is debated). It reached it's peak between 400-450AD, and then had a series of small disruptions or declines (one may have also happened ~300AD?), before collapsing around 550-650AD (perhaps from civil uprising, based on damage to the Xalla compound) Teotihuacan possibly retained smaller but still sizable population for a few more centuries, but it was no longer a major political center. It was never totally depopulated, but different groups moved in and out, living in towns/villages in or around the ruins. When the Aztec began to dominate the valley, they worked Teotihuacan's ruins into their creation myths, used it as pilgrimage site, possibly refurnished some of its shrines, and did archeological excavations there, bringing artifacts back to Tenochtitlan and used Teotihuacan layout, art, and architecture as inspiration for their own construction and artwork. For even more info and links, I discuss Teotihuacan further here: nitter.gq/Majora__Z/status/18340… ------------- So, as we can see, Teotihuacan is not some out of place anomaly that appears out of nowhere and vanishes without a trace, without clear ties to other Mesoamerican civilizations: It has somewhat clear origins, we know part of why it got so big, we see it interact with other civilizations that do have known linguistic/cultural identities, it had influence over broader Mesoamerican art and culture, we probably know part of why it declined, and we see later Mesoamerican civilizations interact with it's legacy. That's not to say there's nothing unique or unusual about it, it's really big, for one, and parts of it's urban layout and how it's space was used is odd, with it being organized around a central road rather then plazas like most Mesoamerican cities, it having a planned grid, mostly lacking ball courts, most of its population living in palaces as apartments, and the lack of clear signs of kings (tho I have some skepticism on that last one). But many other things about it's urbanism and architecture fit into regional trends, and "we don't know who built it" isn't really one of those notable odd traits: In fact as as Dr. Miano here implies, we kind of do? The Teotihuacanos did. We don't know what language the Teotihuacano spoke (theories range from Otomi, Totonac, Nahuatl/Proto-Nahuatl etc), and it's not obviously part of a broader cultural group, but that's not too different from, say, the Minoans: AFAIK we also don't know what language they spoke, their sites are localized to Crete and otherwise we just see their artistic and economic influence elsewhere. The difference is, I think, that people are taught how different European civilizations, kingdoms, and empires rose and fell over time, and are introduced to the Minoans and other groups as known quantities, wheras for Mesoamerica people are only taught that the Aztec, Maya and maybe the Olmec exist, and even then not much about them. If you barely even know how those 3 civilizations developed over time, where and when they existed etc, and aren't aware of the dozens of other civilizations in the region's ~3000 history, then yeah, hearing about a massive city you were never taught about where we don't know the identity of the group that built it is going to seem like a big mystery.

This is actually specifically a ceramic figure of a boxer. As in, the combat sport. For those curious for more info, see the link below: nitter.gq/Majora__Z/status/18707…

I agree, but keep in mind that your second image doesn't resemble what actual Mesoamerican fashion worn by the Aztec, Maya etc really looked like. Compare it to these images (credits listed within the image for pics 1-2, 3-4 are by @Zotzcomic ) In addition to Zotzcomic, see also art by @RafaelmenaI / @SaxRafael1 / @rafaelmena , @OHS688 , @AztecEmpire1520 , @Axolitoo , @ChicoDLHistoria , @TlacuiloCouixca / @LuisArmandoAla5 , @MiCorazonMexica , @Itzcacalotl , @nosukuk2 and the artists in this list nitter.gq/i/lists/12403345682485… There's a lot of other Mesoamerican artists not in the list since I haven't updated it in a while, but that should be a good selection to start with Also, for artists not on twitter/social media, look up Scott and Stuart Gentling, H. Tom Hall, Angus Mcbride, Keith Henderson, Peter Dennis, Tomas Filsinger, Adam Hook, Louis Glanzman, Christopher Klein, Ned Seidler, Christian Jégou, Iker Larrauri Prado, and Ignacio Redondo I also do posts on Mesoamerican history and archeology, see some of my posts in this linked tweet: nitter.gq/Majora__Z/status/20242…

I do posts on Mesoamerican history/archeology, and figured I'd chime in on interpreting ornaments in codices and on Tonantzin and Cihuacoatl: Yes, figuring out how the regalia and ornaments in codices actually looked in 3-dimensions can be difficult, you often have to compare many codices, plus ceramic figures, stone sculptures etc to get a handle on it What is the most helpful are 1. Books which focus on Mesoamerican fashion (see the attached image, "Insignia of Rank" in particular is extremely useful, and INAH also has published a few other books not listed here on things like ritual staffs/scepters, shell ornaments, etc) and 2. Academic papers which focus entirely on the iconography of a specific deity or codex, but those can be difficult to track down, especially if you're not already familiar with the literature. I've seen and have read or downloaded some before on Quetzalcoatl, Tezcatlipoca, Tlaloc, Chalchiuhtlicue, Huitzliopotchli, and the Tzitzimime a+ various related deities On the note of the Tzitzimime, I believe researching them may be of use to you (this: researchgate.net/publication… is the one I previously looked at, though I really had just skimmed it😅): The Codex image you posted is actually a depiction of the goddess Cihuacoatl from the Codex Magliabechiano, and she has some of the feminine skeletal imagery associated with the Tzitzimime (and by extension, Itzpapalotl, who is especially associated with/as one of them), as do the Cihuateteo, Tlatecuhtli, and Coatlicue, and all of these are goddesses associated with motherhood, which may tie into the concept of "Tonantzin"... ...Though I admit most of what I can pull up on the term is within the context of discussing the Lady of Guadalupe and modern Chicana feminist artwork, rather then papers on actual Mesoamerican ethnography, art, and archeology, so I am a bit skeptical how much of the things sources ascribe to "Tonantzin" truly reflects prehispanic beliefs and practices. @AbbasiJuan may have input here? At very least, Arqueologia Mexicana, which is generally a good source, notes that Sahagun refers to Cihuacoatl as Tonantzin (though i'm not sure if it was exclusively an epithet of Cihuacoatl, or if it was a wider term that also applied to other related mother goddesses, which is my impression), and that there seems to have been a cult devoted to Tonantzin at Tepeyac: arqueologiamexicana.mx/mexic… (apparently the sources discussing her cult there also call her Ilamatecuhtli, which IIRC is also an epithet used for some other mother deities, though I forget the specifics and I'm running out of time to continue to flesh this reply out 😅) and seems to support the idea that the concept played into the Lady/Virgin of Guadalupe cult: arqueologiamexicana.mx/mexic… Also, re: Cihuacoatl iconography, these might be helpful: facebook.com/arqueomex/posts… mexicolore.co.uk/aztecs/azte… arqueologiamexicana.mx/mexic… arqueologiamexicana.mx/mexic… arqueologiamexicana.mx/mexic… arqueologiamexicana.mx/mexic… arqueologiamexicana.mx/mexic… arqueologiamexicana.mx/mexic… arqueologiamexicana.mx/mexic… arqueologiamexicana.mx/mexic… arqueologiamexicana.mx/mexic… arqueologiamexicana.mx/mexic… revistas.inah.gob.mx/index.p… scielo.org.mx/scielo.php?scr… Most (though not all) of the Arqueologia Mexicana articles are excerpts from a longer article on the deity's iconography within their issue #183, it seems. Anyways, another thing helpful for interpreting the ornamentation see in codices is looking at how other artists do it: @ohs688 , @zotzcomic , @RafaelmenaI , @TlacuiloCouixca / @LuisArmandoAla5 and @Axolitoo all do some excellent, well researched historical reconstructions. Also, while they take more creative liberties to varying degrees, @Itzcacalotl , @nosukuk2 , and @MiCorazonMexica all do an excellent job here too. There are other artists I can suggest in addition to these, but they are who come to mind to me at the moment. I do have a big Mesoamerican artist list, but I really need to update it 😅

This is not Maya, nor from the Classic period. This is Olmec, namely Altar 5 from La Venta, accordingly this is a Preclassic/Formative period structure. You don't even need to be a Mesoamerican nerd to know this, the style is clearly Olmec and Google's reverse image search just tells you it's Altar 5 (not that I would trust it's AI summary answer, but in this case it is correct)