@grok So, of the 16 instances where the Hebrew word tselem shows up in the biblical text, which of them is this figurative sense that you are trying to use as the meaning in Genesis 1?

οὐκ ἐξ ὄντων is not unambiguous “from absolute non-existence.” In context it can simply mean “not from already existing formed things” or “not from visible material,” which aligns with God ordering unformed chaos (Genesis 1:2). The mother’s words are a pastoral appeal to trust God’s power, not a technical philosophical statement of ex nihilo. Later interpreters read it that way under developing Greek influence, but the original language does not require it. Hebrews 11:3 and John 1:3 likewise describe God’s creative agency and the ordering of what is seen from what is unseen… without demanding creation from pure nothing. (Obviously, just because something is “unseen“ does not mean it’s literally nothing) LDS teaching that God organizes eternally existing matter/chaos is fully compatible with the wording and with the broader biblical creation narrative

@grok is always gonna default to the “consensus” view. When it comes to interpretation, it isn’t so simple… And @grok will admit it. Everything I have said is accurate.

The statues have the same basic shape/form. They have hands and feet and leg legs and head. That is the point I am making. I believe that Hebrew word shows up about 17 times in the Old Testament and it is always used to describe that shape. Even when it refers to a shadow, the shadow is the same basic shape as the original object. So basically, you have to say that Genesis 1:26 -28 has to mean something different than all the other instances in the Old Testament. You have to admit that is not a solid way to interpret the text. Again, the LDS interpretation is much more consistent.

@grok ”Tselem denotes functional representation.” A statue actually isn’t functional. The interpretation does not work well at all. The LDS interpretation is much more consistent. As for 2 Maccabees 7:28 … it does not teach strict ex nihilo. The Greek ouk ex ontōn (“not from things that were”) is ambiguous “it is of a different type/nature/form than it was before) and can mean “not from pre-existing formed matter” or “not from visible things,” consistent with God ordering chaos (Genesis 1:2, “without form and void”). The mother is urging her son to trust God’s creative power, not defining a philosophical doctrine of creation from absolute nothing. scholarsarchive.byu.edu/cgi/…

“Biblical texts like Heb 11:3 and Rom 4:17 indicate creation from nothing”. That is the interpretation from 200 AD around the time of Tatian. Prior to that the understanding was creation from chaos (often with “water” representing chaos as it was “without form and void”) It is true that God is spirit, but so are we and that is why we worship “in spirit and in truth”. That does not mean we cannot have a physical body. A better translation for “invisible” is “not seen” (but the Bible does say those saved will “see God”). The purpose of the “kavod” is to hide the full glory of divinity because sinful humanity would perish if God were seen (unless transfigured like Moses). It is true that theophanies do not require God, the father to have a physical body. But the way “tselem” is used elsewhere in the text fits the LDS interpretation very well.

The Bible does teach the core truths about God’s nature and the destiny of His children that Latter-day Saints affirm. Later Christian creeds and traditions often narrowed or reinterpreted them (ex nihilo creation for example developed around the time of Tatian about 200 AD). For LDS, modern revelation clarifies the proper interpretations of the Bible and expands on that. The claim that LDS distinctions about eternal life as exaltation or the quality of divine life are “not biblical” overlooks substantial biblical evidence and the consistent Latter-day Saint reading of those texts. Latter-day Saints affirm that God is eternal, “from everlasting to everlasting” (Psalm 90:2), infinite, unchangeable, and the source of all life and light (Doctrine and Covenants 20:17; 88:12–13). God was not created by anyone else and indeed nobody was created ex nihilo. The eternal intelligence of any being is uncreated and that certainly applies to Deity (God the Father, Jesus Christ, the Holy Spirit) What Latter-day Saints reject is the later philosophical overlay (influenced by Greek thought) that God is pure spirit, wholly other, and incapable of having a tangible form or that humans cannot share in His divine nature in any real sense. Biblical theophanies starting in Genesis with Adam and Eve hearing God walk in the garden in the cool of the day exemplifies this (see also Ezekiel 1:26–28; Acts 7:55–56; Revelation 4–5). Jesus’ own embodiment as the express image of the Father (Hebrews 1:3; Colossians 1:15) support an anthropomorphic understanding. Joseph Smith’s First Vision and modern revelation simply confirm what the Bible already describes. Humanity is made in the image and likeness of God. The Father has a glorified body of flesh and bones (Doctrine and Covenants 130:22), consistent with the resurrected Jesus. The Bible distinguishes mere continued existence from the quality of life God lives. All will be resurrected (1 Corinthians 15:22; John 5:28–29). This is immortality, living forever in a resurrected body. Eternal life is knowing God and Jesus Christ (John 17:3) and receiving the inheritance of joint-heirs with Christ (Romans 8:16–17). It is the kind of life God lives… glory, dominion, and relationship… not mere endless duration. Satan and the wicked exist forever but do not have this “eternal life.” See also 2 Peter 1:4: believers may become “partakers of the divine nature.” 1 John 3:2: “we shall be like him.” John 10:34 / Psalm 82:6: “Ye are gods and children of the Most High” (applied by Jesus to those who receive God’s word). Romans 8:17 and Galatians 4:7: heirs and joint-heirs with Christ. Revelation 3:21: those who overcome will sit with Christ on His throne. This is the biblical seed of theosis (divinization), a concept present in early Christian writers long before creedal formulations locked in different definitions. Latter-day Saints see exaltation as the full realization of what it means to be joint-heirs: living in God’s presence, in eternal family relationships, with the power and glory the Father possesses (Doctrine and Covenants 76:50–70; 132). Endless family increase is the natural extension of the biblical emphasis on covenant posterity, inheritance, and God as the Father of spirits (Hebrews 12:9; Acts 17:28–29). As for God, “Who only hath immortality” (1 Timothy 6:16) … This does not contradict the above. At the time of writing, Jesus was the only one who had already received a resurrected, immortal body. All others would receive it later through Him. God is the source of immortality; creatures receive it as a gift.

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That is true… LDS believe God is eternal. But what does that mean? It is more than just existing from “eternity past” to “eternity future”. It is more. (Note: The scriptures not only call covenants with mortals “eternal”, but also hills and mountains on Earth are called “eternal”. But that is another matter.) When it comes to agents and entities … “eternal” is often referring to a quality of existence, not simply existing. Lucifer and his followers may exist forever in the future, but that doesn’t mean they have “eternal” life.

@grok Describe the religion/culture of these regions.

@grok What languages are spoken there (and what are the languages related to)?

Why are you changing the topic so quickly? You are resorting to the “Gish gallop” tactic so soon?

@grok What percentage of the collection of scrolls that Joseph Smith had survive now?

Our Heavenly Father, (“our Father who is in Heaven” Matt 6:9) who is the Father of Jesus Christ, is “our Father and our God”. The God of Jesus Christ and our God is “the Father of spirits” (Heb 12:9) When Paul quoted the poets who said, “we are His offspring” (genos), do you think Paul picked that quote because it is false? (Acts 18:28-29) How about when Jesus referenced the Psalms which say humans are “children of the Most High”? (Psalms 82:6) So.. yeah. God is the Father of ALL SPIRITS. Uh oh… does that mean YOU are Hitler’s sister!? Why should anyone listen to you?

@grok What is the population of these countries and major exports/industry?